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12/20/2015 9:01 am  #1


Laylines using predicted tides

Hello,
I have a few questions regarding laylines that are calculated using predicted tides.
(I'm using Expedition v.10.1.11)

Once a current grib file is loaded, 6 additional values can be shown in the number box:

Tide left port time (Td L Pt)   
Tide left stbd time (Td L Stb)
Tide left side time (Td L Tm)

Tide right port time (Td R Prt)
Tide right stbd time (Td R Stb)
Tide right side time (Td R Tm)

In the manual these have slightly different names, i.e. "Lay tide port side port time"

I am confused regarding the naming / which value has which meaning. 

For an upwind course: 
Is "Td L Stb" the time on starboard tack from the boat to the layline on the port side of the course (including grib current)? And then "Td L Pt" the time after the tack sailing along the port layline to the mark? 
Is "Td L Tm" the total time to the windward mark, when I go to the layline on the port side of the course first, tack and go along the port layline to the mark?
And is "Td R Tm" the total time to the windward mark, when I go to the stb side of the course first, tack and then go along the stb layline to the mark?


Do the laylines predictions based on predicted tides take into account a change of current in time? For example, if the layline is still 60min away and the tide changes its direction and strength within this time, is that taken into account? Or is just the current at the specific moment taken for the whole calculation?


 

Last edited by nav (12/20/2015 9:01 am)

 

12/20/2015 3:01 pm  #2


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Yes, but you need grib forecast data or be in an area that has integrated tidal currents.

With varying tides, the times will be different on each tack/gybe for each side (left or right). For example, 'Tide left port time' / 'Td L Pt' is the time on port on the left side of the course. Td L Tm is the sum of the two for the left side of the course.

 

12/22/2015 11:04 am  #3


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Nick, thanks for your quick reply.

In simulation mode I placed the boat in an area of different currents on an upwind leg to Mark1.
On the right side of the course there is a strong current against me while on the left side of the course the current is much less.
I'd expect from the outcome of the values, that sailing over the right side would take longer than going left.
However, the numbers are telling me that going right is 6min faster.
Also, 'Td L Prt' shows a longer time than 'Td R Prt' even though I have less adverse current on the port side of the course.


Last edited by nav (12/22/2015 11:27 am)

     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2016 5:44 am  #4


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Hello,
In addition to my comment above I played around a bit more with the laylines in simulation mode.
I'm using Expedition v.10.2.5.

1) I set up an upwind course at the southern end of the Isle of Wight in an area with strong adverse current on the starboard side and much less adverse current on the port side of the course.
Now numbers in the number box are telling me that going right is 6 min faster which can not be right! Also "Td R Prt" (the time on port on the right side of the course) being 11min faster than "Td L Pt" (the time on port on the left side of the course) must be wrong.




2) I did the same in a location where the adverse current is much stronger on the port side of the course. Here the numbers are telling me now that going to the port side of the course is much faster...



3) I wanted to check what happens with the layline numbers on a downwind course but found another strange thing.
In a certain mark bearing of the the wind the layline time on port tack (Tm on P, so without grib current) increases rapidly to unrealistic values:

In the first picture TWD is 360°, MkBrg is 179°, MkRng is 1.66nm.
Tm on P is 3h 42 min...



Moving the mark just a little bit, the MkBrg is 181°, almost same MkRng and same TWD.
All of a sudden the Tm on P is 5min 16sec, which is correct.





Did the same for a different wind direction with a similar wrong result.



I never experienced this during sailing last year. This might be an error that came with a recent update (?).


 

     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2016 10:21 am  #5


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Hello ​Thanks. Am on vacation until the 10th, will look at it in detail when get home. Nick

 

1/04/2016 9:15 am  #6


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Hi,

Nice job explaining your question!   I've used Expeditions layline times with predicted tides for several years now with great success... but I must admit I never bothered to analyze the nomenclature for the names of the variables.   I simply did like you - simulated a case where there was an obvious correct answer (eg. stay out of adverse current or stay in the strongest favorable current) and put up all the number boxes including the "normal" expedition lay times (without current) for comparison - and picked the two variables that gave me the layline times from where I am using predicted tides... I never bothered to figure out what the names of the variables meant.   

I just replicated your questions - and it appears that the "L" and "R" (left and right) names are "backwards"... that is TD L Time is really the time if you hit the right side layline and vice versa.   

But aside from that "name" bug - I've found the predicted tides numbers to be really good - and quite helpful.    And of course if you are using them to "pick a side"  you would have to know that the names are backwards. 

It's probably worth keeping the "normal" layline times (without current)... on your screen too.... for a reality check!

As for your other reported bug.... (port tack layline time (the "normal"variable incorrect when upwind of a leeward mark) Nick will have to look at that for sure.   It may be due to something with the simulator - which would explain why we have not seen it when sailing.     I was able to replicate the problem.. only the port tack layline time has the bug - and I've only been able to make it happen when sailing to a downwind mark - and only when I'm upwind of that mark.. when my boat gets near the port tack layline - the variable reads correctly.    

Thanks
Peter

 

1/05/2016 11:58 am  #7


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Peter, thanks for your detailed answer!
One follow-up question: The "normal" layline times ("Tm on P", "Tm on Stb") in Expedition include current, right? Although not the predicted from the grib but the measured one from heel, BSP, COG etc. (provided all instruments are calibrated correctly).

Regarding the bug: What you discribed is exactly what I'm seeing too. I also tried it with Expedition getting the data from Deckman's simulation mode through Dfw2Exp...same bug.

     Thread Starter
 

1/14/2016 11:49 am  #8


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

This one is now solved (v. 10.2.11).
'Td R Prt' as an example is now the time sailing on port tack on the right side of the course. The Course side is always (upwind and downwind) defined looking upwind.

     Thread Starter
 

5/03/2018 11:58 pm  #9


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Nick wrote:

Yes, but you need grib forecast data or be in an area that has integrated tidal currents.

(I know this is a very old post - but still very valid.)

Re the above, I am wondering: How does Expedition behave when you have tidal currents (a tide file), the CMAP chart has integrated tidal currents, and you have a tide GRIB (e.g. TideTech).

1) Will Expedition use ... to calculate lay lines?
   a) tide file
   b) GRIB file
   c) tidal currents in CMAP

2) What happens if Expedition has more than one of the above available at the same time?

 

5/04/2018 1:33 am  #10


Re: Laylines using predicted tides

Exp will try to use the grib data before the models. It can't use C-Map tidal currents for anything. 

 

 

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